Великие полководцы

[Chernish]

читали ли вы книгу Е. А. Разина "История военного искусства XXXI в. до н. э. — VI в. н. э."

 

 

В советское время один из немногих трудов по военой истории. С учетом времени написания (послевоеная сталинская Россия) - нормальная работа.. безусловно очень устаревшая сейчас но для своего времени полезная Зачем ее переиздали - не очень понимаю... Даже по сравнению с Дельбрюком Разин - шаг назад..

[Георги Антонов]

Firstly, excuse me for speaking in English, I just don't feel that confident in my knowledge of Russian

 

Obviously, anybody can rate military leaders according to their own prefrence and level of knowledge of history, so I won't join in forming the top 10. In my own opinion, Суь Цзы (Сун Дзъ, Sun Dzu) is one of the greatest military minds in history, because he was one of the first to reach such rate. Napoleon I is certainly one of the greatest people to have lived and changed history. I am also very fond of М. И. Кутузов, both because he was one of the few to have had the skill, confidence and opportunity to beat Napoleon but also because his roots are from Bulgaria on the Volga river

 

Another point - when rating strategists and tacticians, don't forget that in the past it was much easier to be a great military leader than it is today. I beleive I don't need to tell you why. It would take me a few kb of writing so I rely on your thinking

 

There were many great Bulgarian tacticians and strategists. Цар Калоян has also beaten knights in 1205 and he did beat them pretty hard, but that's another long story. Nobody seems to have heared about Bulgaria, though, which takes me to the next matter: I came across this site and forum while looking for Creative Assembly's official forum. I am amazed that The Second Bulgarian Empire is not included in the game (цар = imperator, eng. "emperor"). Were we that samll or something?! There *are* such backwater tribes like the Picts while the first slavonic civilisation and culture is missing. WTF? I'll write them one nice and long post about the history of Bulgaria and I can feel it will contain words like мамица in different forms and equivalents quite often

[SlipJ]

2 Георги Антонов:

я так понимаю - русский ты понимаешь?

По поводу Великой Болгарии, это конечно интересно, но нельзя ли получить ссылочку на какой-нибудь исторический сайт по этому вопросу? Причем желательно не слишком "националистический", а то в последнее время множество государств ударились в этом направлении...

 

Do you want me to repeat smth in english?

[xcb]

я так понимаю - русский ты понимаешь?

SlipJ - просьба - нельзя ли перевести высказывание Георги Антонов для остальных (хотя бы вкратце, а то понял только цифры ) и мы бы тоже товарища "попинали"

[xcb]

Даже по сравнению с Дельбрюком  Разин - шаг назад..

Это, извиняюсь тот Дельбрюк про которого написано (см ссылку http://www.ancient.holm.ru/topics/war/, похоже Разин)- "По мнению Дельбрюка, македонская фаланга была выражением упадка военного искусства. На самом деле это был один из моментов развития военного искусства. За строевой громоздкостью и неповоротливостью фаланги Дельбрюк не хотел видеть ее тактическую подвижность, основанную на тактическом расчленении фаланги на составные части по фронту и в глубину, следствием чего было возникновение новой организационной структуры армии."

[Георги Антонов]

SlipJ, thanks for the offer to translate something but I'm sitting here with two big dictionaries and using the opportunity to study some Russian

 

The saddest thing is - I can't give you a link to anything. I must admit, I can only look with envy at the many (and big and informative) Russian sites related to Russia's history. I am personally trying to do something about it because my country has practically nothing on the internet related to Bulgaria's history. It's like we're waiting for someone else to tell our history for us.

 

Some time ago, on my own initiative, without looking for any help from government organisations, I've started preparing a (the first) web site dedicated to Bulgaria and its activity in the First World War. I've written an article of about 9 kb about our role in the Second World War and sent it to Alan Wilson, a friend of mine and a history consultant for the Return to Castle of Wolfenstein mod "The Russian Front" - www.planetwolfenstein.com/russianfront

They have not updated their site for some time, though, so the article is unavailable.

 

While writing this, I'm resting from writing another article, this time for Bulgaria in the 1st world war, that one is for the site www.firstworldwar.com owned by Michael Duffy who said he can find almost no materials for Bulgaria and I promised to help him. So, I'm doing what I can

 

xcb - sorry again mate. I respect you guys too much to start writing laughably sounding posts in some pseudo-Russian. And about Creative Assembly - as soon as I find them, they're in trouble

On the serious side, I'm really going to talk to them and see why there is no Bulgaria in M:TW. It makes no sense - on 14th April 1205, around Adrianopole we killed about 140 knights and their supporting troops, that was the "elite of the European knighthood" (I think that was Jofrois de Ville, "The taking of Constantinopole, XIII century but I'm not sure). Also, in the same battle, we took captive the Latin Emperor Baldwin and left him to rot in the Czarevets tower. The pope himself wrote to our Czar, asking the Emperor to be released. So these westeners must know about Bulgaria. I don't know, maybe they too don't have enough materials about us or they're preaparing a second expansion especially for us

[SlipJ]

2 xcb: дословно переводить не буду - влом...

Obviously, anybody can rate military leaders according to their own prefrence and level of knowledge of history, so I won't join in forming the top 10. In my own opinion, Суь Цзы (Сун Дзъ, Sun Dzu) is one of the greatest military minds in history, because he was one of the first to reach such rate. Napoleon I is certainly one of the greatest people to have lived and changed history. I am also very fond of М. И. Кутузов, both because he was one of the few to have had the skill, confidence and opportunity to beat Napoleon but also because his roots are from Bulgaria on the Volga river

Ну типа, он намекает, что он "не самый крутой спец" по истории, но лично он очень уважает Сунь Дзы, как первого человека настолько систематизировавшего и продумавшего всю "эту фигню" . Кроме того Наполеон и Кутузов - последний особенно так-как он еще и земляк товарища Георгия (болгарин).

Another point - when rating strategists and tacticians, don't forget that in the past it was much easier to be a great military leader than it is today. I beleive I don't need to tell you why. It would take me a few kb of writing so I rely on your thinking

"Не забывайте, что раньше славу "великого полководца" получить было гораздо проще." Причем, это очень долго обьяснять, если вы не согласны (я согласен).

There were many great Bulgarian tacticians and strategists. Цар Калоян has also beaten knights in 1205 and he did beat them pretty hard, but that's another long story. Nobody seems to have heared about Bulgaria, though, which takes me to the next matter: I came across this site and forum while looking for Creative Assembly's official forum. I am amazed that The Second Bulgarian Empire is not included in the game (цар = imperator, eng. "emperor"). Were we that samll or something?! There *are* such backwater tribes like the Picts while the first slavonic civilisation and culture is missing. WTF? I'll write them one nice and long post about the history of Bulgaria and I can feel it will contain words like мамица in different forms and equivalents quite often

Эээ, наш друг выражает "немеряное" удивление тем, что в игре не отражена великая Болгария, и хочет по этому поводу накапать в СА, что они конкретно не правы...

Кстати я про "величие Болгарии" ничего не слышал - подозреваю, что разработчики тоже.

Линки он дать не может потому, что государство проявляет изумительную нерасторопность в попытке принести свою историю в массы.

Тебе xcb персональные извинения.

 

2 Георги Антонов: К сожалению, о истории Болгарии я знаю довольно мало, да, были люди в это время... Но если честно, не в обиду будет сказано, мне кажется твои притензии несколько приувеличены... Видишь ли, активность в войне понятие относительное - взять хотя-бы активность Украины в последней войне с Ираком - криков много, активности много, толку (и исторического смысла) - мало...

Действительно, припоминаю, что где-то чем-то болгария в середине средних веков "отличилась", но как могучая держава, и "The Second Bulgarian Empire" - не тянет - размах не тот... Назваться империей еще не значит ею стать...

[Chernish]

2 Георги Антонов:

on 14th April 1205, around Adrianopole we killed about 140 knights and their supporting troops, that was the "elite of the European knighthood"

 

Д.Ч.* Давно хотел спросить специалиста по болгарской истории да никак не встречал - Л.Н. Гумилев писал про участие в этой битве половцев (на стороне влахо-болгар естественно) - это правда или как? :-)

don't know, maybe they too don't have enough materials about us or they're preaparing a second expansion especially for us

Д.Ч.* Что делать - карта МТВ очень условная, там нет не только Болгарии, но и Литвы, Грузии, Швеции - не последних стран в Средние века. Очень жаль - если бы карта была поподробнее а стран-участников - побольше - можно было бы гораздо более исторические кампании делать.

М. И. Кутузов, both because he was one of the few to have had the skill, confidence and opportunity to beat Napoleon but also because his roots are from Bulgaria on the Volga river

Кутузов (как и Суворов) - роды их происходят от тюркско-болгарских корней (Кутуз - половецкое имя, Сувар - город в Волжской Болгарии). Учитывая что волжские болгары и дунайские - кровные родственники (хотя первые остались тюрками, а вторые стали славянами) - "родство" Кутузова с болгарами не вызывает сомнений

[xcb]

дословно переводить не буду - влом...

SlipJ - Спасибо большое за перевод( дословно и не надо, главное суть претензий и мыслей товарища - Георги Антонов). Будем надеяться два больших словаря ему помогут (или пусть речь в программу-переводчик сунет - как-нибудь разберем)!!!!

[Георги Антонов]

No offence taken, friend.

 

About the word "empire" - that's the equivalent of "царство". I can't call it a kingdom because the king stands lower than the czar and I haven't heared a word like "czardom". If I could speak in Russian I'd be saying "царство", not "империя". The Frech history schoolbooks for instance speak about "Bulgarian 1st and 2nd empire". The orthodox patriarch from Constantinopole used to give the title "czar" which was equal "vasilevs" and "emperor".

 

I have no pretentions on "greatness" or "glory" although we survived longer than Byzantium, frequently threatened its existance, held most of the Balkan peninsula, had outlets on three seas (Adriatic, Black and Egean) and posessed territoires as far norht as the Carpates. All I'm saying is, that we were big enough to be added as a playable faction in M:TW. And CA are acting as if we never existed. I feel funny for having to *prove* to some people that my country actually existed in a given period of time. After all I'm from Bulgaria, not from Atlantis, am I? I am mentioning those battles because they serve as a sign that Bulgaria existed in that period and was a country big enough to cause trouble for the Latin empire and that it has made contact with people from western Europe. The military activity is not my proof or argument. Facts are not to be proven, they are proof themselves.

 

As for what if they don't know about Bulgaria - it wouldn't surprise me. It's amazing how nobody knows nothing about us But I'm working on it. Its even funny to some extent - I've personally heared foreigners to say that "Bulgaria is the best kept secret in the world".

 

Lastly, let's make sure we are talking about the same thing. Велика България - that's the name of the military alliance of nomadic tribes made by khan Kubrat much before the year 681 when present day Bulgaria was founded and, much before the year when M:TW starts. I am not talking about that "Велика България". I am talking about Bulgaria that was founded in 680-681 and in 1018 fell under Byzantium rule. There were revolts in 1040 and 1072. Bulgaria was finally free in 1185, quickly regaining most of its territories. Enough territories for CA to be making an anachronism. For example who was the south-east neighbour of Hungary in 1204? The Martians?

Bulgaria on the Balkans was never called "Велика". It was only "България" or "Царство България".

584 - ок 665 - Велика България, северно от Черно море, на реките Волга, Дон, Кубан, Кама. Аз *не* говоря за тази България

681-1018 - Първо Българско Царство

1185-1396 - Второ Българско Царство

1878 - 1944-5 - Трето Българско Царство (първоначално княжество, васал на Османската Империя)

1944-5 - 1989-90 - Народна Република България

1989-90 - до днес - Република България

 

Oh, and just a little something - "При царе Калояне (правил в 1197-1207) болг. гос-во достигло границ, к-рые оно имело до завоевание Византией." - Большая Советская Энциклопедия, т2, стр. 478.

[SlipJ]

2 Георги Антонов: спасибо очень познавательно...

[Георги Антонов]

Yes, I don't want to become annoying

 

I went to gamefaqs.com and read some guides and unit and province listings (I didn't know a thing since I don't have the game, I'll buy it along with the expansion so I'm waiting for it to come out). I still think that the Bulgarian "Царство" must become available to be played with in the second period. They just can't close their eyes like that. They're putting us in the same category as regions like Finland, Sardinia or Wessex which is simply insulting. Maybe Sardinia made their own alphabet too, huh? Or Englad paid yearly tax to Wessex like Byzantium did to Bulgaria? Sure, CA won't sell most copies of M:CW or M:CW-VI in Bulgaria (actually I doubt they'll sell more than 100) but that's not a reason to neglect us. I'm sure you understand me.

 

To completely clear the empire matter: The word "empire" is usually used for countries controlling more than one nation, and in this way of thinking Bulgaria really doesn't have much reason to be called an empire. The only reason I used "empire" is because it's the only correct (because "kingdom" is incorrect) english word for a domain controlled by a czar, not a knyaz or a king. I don't insist on my country being called an empire. If I did, I would have to fight legions of Bulgarian historians and there's no need to, since I share their opinion - although we had a czar and it's the same as emperor, "empire" does not fit for Bulgaria. Ranting around just because we're not exactly an empire would be stupid and premature.

[Wiz]

Да там много кого обидели не только Болгаров!

[Георги Антонов]

Where are you from, Wiz?

 

I'm not familiar with all of the provinces' history but browsing through the regions list, Brandenburg-Prussia, Bavaria (I am certain about that one), Hungary (it's playable in the expansion), Ireland, Saxony, Serbia, Sweden, Scotland should have also been playable. I don't know much about Russian medieval history, so you tell me if any of your provinces have been dropped too.

 

Chernish - I can't rightly understand the first paragraph in your post.

 

About М. И. Кутузов - I've always been wondering what would have happened if Napoleon fought against Bulgarians so I was very happy when learned about Кутузов descendance

 

Don't take me too serious, of course Кутузов was raised and educated in Russia and wouldn't have been who he was if it wasn't for these facts.

By the way I didn't know about Суворов - makes me proud too

Did you know that the Volga Bulgarians were the first to have ever inflicted defeats (although they fell eventually) to Gengis Khan?

 

I'm in the mood so I'll continue on a bit - one of the theories about the meaning of the word "Bulagarian" is that it derives from the turk word "bulga" wich means "mixed". "Mixed" not in the sense that they were bisexual but that they lived in big families and there were often inter-family marriges. Also, when defeating another tribe, the Bulgarians would kill all the men and take the women and children. Then they taught them their language and raised them as Bulgarians. Actually they accepted anybody in their community as long as he spoke their language and obeyed their laws. I think this was something rare in these times. Understandably, the Bulgarian genetic fund is very rich today - Bulgarians have very little facial similiarities, compared to nations like the Germans or Swedes for example.

 

The origin of the war cry "Ура-а-а!" is exactly from the turk tribes. It had something to do with the mid-asian subrace skull and jaw construction. It also seems to be a very convenient thing to scream while charging on horseback.

 

The word "turk" comes from the Chinese "Tour-kie" and means "strong, sturdy, brave". There is this Chinese chronicle I always love to cite in front of Americans, English and so forth: "The Bulgarian is as fast as the wind, as strong as the thunder and as surprising as the lighting"

[Клин]

2 Chernish:

2 Георги Антонов:

Насколько я знаю, современные казанские татары считают себя потомками булгар(волжских), так вот хотелось бы знать какая есть связь между Волжскими Булгарами, Болгарами современными и татарами.

 

The origin of the war cry "Ура-а-а!" is exactly from the turk tribes.

точно, "ура" значит "руби".

[Георги Антонов]

2 Chernish:

2 Георги Антонов:

Насколько я знаю, современные казанские татары считают себя потомками булгар(волжских), так вот хотелось бы знать какая есть связь между Волжскими Булгарами, Болгарами современными и татарами.

Доколкото аз знам, "татарите" са били насилствено преименувани по този начин по времето на Ленин, за да се избегнат етнически неразбирателства с България, които са били възможни при наличието на група наричаща се "българи" в СССР. Спомням си, че четох една дълга статия по този въпрос, но не помня подробности.

Let me know if you need something translated. I think we may have an easier time communicating like that.

[SlipJ]

2 Георги Антонов: уж лучше на английском !!!

[Георги Антонов]

2 SlipJ:

"Лучше" за кого? Мисля как да те улесня

Ако бях учил поне малко руски, щях да разбирам падежите и времевите форми и с речниците щях да мога да пиша на поносимо добър руски. Лично аз схващам езици лесно. Вас ви разбирам почти без речник, повечето думи, които срещам имат общ корен с някоя българска дума и по смисъла мога да се ориентирам. В езикознанието руският език се нарича "статичен", т.е. има падежи вместо предлози, а българският, който има предлози е "аналитичен". Разбирам малко от езикознание

Освен на английски, мога да говоря и на френски и дори малко немски

Има още няколко езика, на които знам само псувни, но това е друга тема

 

My previous post:

 

As far as I know the so called Tartars were forcefully converted Volga-Bulgarians during the times of Lenin. The goal was to avoid ethnical arguments with Bulgaria regarding an ethnical group in the USSR callig itself "bulgarians". I read a long article on the subject some time ago but don't remember any details.

 

Something else - I'm reading the Russian Navy history at www.neva.ru. What other sites are there about Russia from the middle ages to the second half of 19th century?

[Wiz]

Where are you from, Wiz?

from Russia

Да я так к слову прост карта медивала очень сильно не соотвецтвует действительности, в действительности в ср.века такое понятие как гос-во только зарождалось в европе......

[SlipJ]

2 Георги Антонов: на английском хоть что-тобыло понятно, а для тех кому не понятно есть друзья знающие английский, словари и автоматические переводчики. А переводчиков и слоаварей с "ломаного русского" с легкой примесью болгарского не существует... как это не печально

[Георги Антонов]

Where are you from, Wiz?

from Russia

Да я так к слову прост карта медивала очень сильно не соотвецтвует действительности, в действительности в ср.века такое понятие как гос-во только зарождалось в европе......

Oh. I remember you saying something like "My Russian is pretty bad", you must have been kidding. Nevermid

 

SlipJ - I'm getting your dirft. I just feel a bit taffy for having to speak in English, that's all

[Wiz]

Oh. I remember you saying something like "My Russian is pretty bad", you must have been kidding. Nevermid

Дак этож когдаж было, сто лет назад Кнечно я пошутил, но с Русским у меня всё равно небольшие проблемы, плохо в школе учился.

[Георги Антонов]

I wrote this when editing a previous post, so you may have skipped through it:

 

"Something else - I'm reading the Russian Navy history at www.neva.ru. What sites can you recommend me about Russia from the middle ages to the second half of 19th century?"

 

(By the way - my picture's going to look quite funny when I reach the "emperor" rank )

[Mezhick]

А мне претензии Георги Антонова не кажутся такими уж необоснованными. Посудите сами:

1. Чтобы мы сказали, если бы вместо Великого Новгорода и России был бы просто один единственный юнит. Например, казак или вор? Так ведь люди в СА именно так и поступили - "Болгарский разбойник"! Хороша репутация, ничего не скажешь!

2. Болгария большую часть своей истории была под чьим-то гнетом. Но, замечу, почти на всех картах Болгария присутствует, и не просто как область, а как большая территория с четкими границами.

3. И, в конце концов, Габрово!!! Если я не ошибаюсь, то жители именно этого города являются героями многих... мммм... "Балканских" (или "Задунайских"? ) анекдотов (пусть Георги меня поправит)

 

2 Георги Антонов:

По моему, вы поставили себе непосильную задачу Собрать историю государства, которая была почти перечеркнута турецким игом - чрезвычайно тяжело. Вам надо искать ответы не в России, а скорее в Турции В этом смысле России повезло - татары не искореняли обычаи, не навязывали религию... Хотя, если что-то очень захотеть, можно чего-то добиться (главное, чтобы результат соответствовал вашим запросам ) Удачи.

мога да говоря и на френски и дори малко немски

Лучше просто по английски Болгарский и русский "однокоренные" языки, но лично мне тяжело разбираться даже в белорусской речи...

По поводу феодальной раздробленности на территории Древней Руси - начните игру в Europa Universalis, посмотрите на территорию Германии - абсолютно тоже самое! В принципе, в Medieval указаны основные провинции-княжества (хотя роль Киева явно занижена).

 

2 SlipJ, Engeneer, AlexRaven, Chernish (D.Ch.): Мододелы, смотрите куда дело движется! Может уже задумываться о "Славянском" моде?

[VokialMax]

2 SlipJ:

 

знаешь, а по-болгарски понятнее

 

*пардон за оффтоп. бью себя по губам нещадно *